Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

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The Natural
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Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby The Natural » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:05 pm

This may be a just a tacke Junkies dream, but why can't there be something to measure a rods sensitivity besides a hand? Car/truck testing clearly has the skidpad, dyno numbers, price, etc. for a buyer to use. Is it too space age to think there couldn't be a meter to measure the vibration in and then out of a blank? The vibration in and what is telegraphed out would be a simple measure of a blanks sensitivity. We need a blank dyno! I've owned a lot of rods, and know my fingers don't lie, but I just like to see it on paper (I won't share my motivation...that's a different debate). I absolutely loved the fluorocarbon thread, and it proved everything I had already hypothisized, and I'm confident a blank test would do the same (I love fluoro, but the stretch and knot strength seemed apparent to me from use). Oh, and by the way...will TT please do a mono/copoly shootout? We need Yozuri Hybrid and Ultrasoft, Pline CXX, Big Game, Stren, McCoys, etc. versus each other in a Shootout! I use fluoro on all my feel rods, but use Copoly on my spinnerbait, topwater, shallow crank, etc. rods. I want to see how my Pline CXX stacks up ;)

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Mattman » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:38 am

The biggest reason is that "sensitivity" is a subjective term. It isn't open to scientific method. There are also a lot of factors that make up "sensitivity" like mechanical impedance and resonance frequency. Among others.

Is "sensitivity" the feeling of vibration at the hand? Is it feeling the pull from the fish? Two different sets of critera are needed to test for those results.

It really is quite a complex issue without a simple answer or test. And its an issue that we each need to come to a conclusion on our own as it is so subjective.






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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Thor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:45 am

Testing could be done under controlled conditions and utilizing objective criteria.

A few pertinent questions come to mind. Who is going to do this since this entity does not exist today? Who pays for all this? Lastly, how closely will the results match any real world testing?

People are not the best lab animals. They report what they want to happen, not what really happens.

I know a group of young tournament fishermen that firmly believes that some old Lamiglass LTD blanks made into custom rods are the greatest rods ever. When compared with GLoomis GLX blanks, the consensus of opinion is that the Lamiglass rods are far superior in casting efficiency, sensitivity and fish fighting ability. The fact that they were told that the Lamiglass blanks were not old but made by an upstart rod company using a special graphite/boron/carbon pre-preg material and nano technology epoxy may have influenced their opinions.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Questor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:48 am

Why? Probably because it's mostly subjective after you get past the "fast/slow..." and "medium/heavy..." descriptions.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby raul » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:15 am

For the love of God, I swear I can´t feel the difference in sensitivity between a GLX and an IMX.

I think that qualifies as "subjective".

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby The Natural » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:33 am

Thor wrote:Testing could be done under controlled conditions and utilizing objective criteria.

A few pertinent questions come to mind. Who is going to do this since this entity does not exist today? Who pays for all this? Lastly, how closely will the results match any real world testing?

People are not the best lab animals. They report what they want to happen, not what really happens.

I know a group of young tournament fishermen that firmly believes that some old Lamiglass LTD blanks made into custom rods are the greatest rods ever. When compared with GLoomis GLX blanks, the consensus of opinion is that the Lamiglass rods are far superior in casting efficiency, sensitivity and fish fighting ability. The fact that they were told that the Lamiglass blanks were not old but made by an upstart rod company using a special graphite/boron/carbon pre-preg material and nano technology epoxy may have influenced their opinions.


That's just it...this doesn't exist...was just saying it would be cool, and I think it will be done in the future. These are the thoughts I have when I'm stuck on the couch all day with strep throat :). I guess it could be good and bad, because it would surely affect some people's confidence if their brand didn't stack up. A lot of people were switching fluoro brands after the shootout!

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Thor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:43 am

No doubt, very cool but who is going to pay. I certainly do not want the rod companies to support this entity.

What is necessary is one very wealthy fishermen to leave the bulk of his estate to this project. Create a foundation with an endowment and solicit for subsequent gifts. I volunteer to manage this foundation.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby LordRiper » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:56 am

Of course "sensitivity" is not a subjetive term... some ware in the world must be an instrument for measure vibrations (accelerometer? Stroboscopic Interferometer? ), put the sensor in real seat, then make a controled "click" on the tip and read the gauge...

Maybe is not subjetive, but.. expensive?
Last edited by LordRiper on Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Nitroman77 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:00 am

LordRiper wrote:Of curse "sensitivity" is not a subjetive term... some ware in the world must be an instrument for measure vibrations (accelerometer? Stroboscopic Interferometer? ), put the sensor in real seat, then make a controled "click" on the tip and read the gauge...


Thats what I was thinking the same stuff they use to indicate earthquakes just put the device where your hand holds the rod tie on a piece of line to the end of the rod and flick it and see which one gives off the most vibrations or something.
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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Thor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:14 am

There are several instruments designed to measure "vibrations". What vibrations a person can detect is a matter of perception.

A hearing test will generate and present audio frequencies to a subject. The frequencies they can perceive is based on individual characteristics.

A test would need to be developed to carry over these standards to the vibrations measure.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby REW » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:39 pm

Theoretically, you could calculate a rod's efficiency of transferring energy, sweeping across a wide spectrum of frequencies, and perhaps using pink, or white noise, similar to when testing a driver. However, the problem I see with that is the fact that resonance, nodes, and damping would be different not only from model to model, but even withing a sample, as rods of a particular model aren't perfectly similar. Also, one could claim that this doesn't accurately represent the type of vibrations one might encounter while fishing.

Another problem that may arise is that resonance, damping, and the like, are all subject to factors outside of the rod, itself. How you grip the rod, how much tensions is applied, and even the mass applied to the rod, by your reel, hand, arm, or whatever else, could alter the rod's response. Now, this is just a theory, but taking from me experiences with musical instruments, and transducers, adding a little mass, or altering tensions can alter the response greatly. It would be very difficult, and costly, to recreate all of these scenarios in the lab. Furthermore, one manufacturer could cry foul, as even the simple act of measuring, itself, as an effect on a rod's response.

One last thing that comes to mind, as suggested by Thor, is that it is difficult to apply that data in a meaningful way. Perhaps one rod transmits certain frequencies better than another, and others less efficiently, but as a whole, they are both similarly efficient across the spectrum of recognizable frequencies. How do we say which frequencies are most important? It is possible to get a relative idea, similar to the way it is done in the audio realm, but there will still be disparity, due to the different abilities of perception each individual has.

So, it could be done, but I doubt it could be done in a way that would be satisfactory to all people. Given the time, and money, it would take to do this, and the fact that people would still find problems with the methodology, I would say most companies would rather just make the claim that their product is more sensitive, and hope you feel the same.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Thor » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:49 pm

Another thought.

Hearing tests use quality headphones that can be accurately calibrated to present audio signals the same way to multiple subjects.

A vibration test could use a blank as an delivery instrument but this would not take into account the weight of other components whose weight would dampen any vibrations. A completed rod with grips, guides, wraps and finish would have to be constructed. Now the number of options, and therefore, variables has increased.

This type of testing would certainly put an end to some of the marketing hype that is out there.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby REW » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:54 pm

That is, more or less, the biggest problem I see with it - way too many variables. When you are done, people would complain that the data can't accurately be applied to real-world usage, because there is almost no way to account for all of these variables in a way that could be considered statistically meaningful. There would be tonnes of "yeah, but" scenarios.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby JayInGrapevine » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:05 pm

I'm almost positive you could use a seismograph and use something to create a "tap" on the rod that is measured. Something like a blast of compressed air. Correlated the amount of pressure blasted on the rod to the amount of vibration read by the seismograph. If not a blast of air that could be done in increments of PSI, then something like a pendulum that a measured amount of force can be applied to.
Bottom line, it's possible.

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Re: Why can't there be advanced rod sensitivity testing?

Postby Vladimir_Kazan » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:32 pm

Hmm... Twenty years back I had portative spectrum analyzer of firm "Shenk" (Germany). It could determine the degree of wear of bearings inside a machine on change of a spectrum of vibration on a machine frame. The price was not high.


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